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Post of paninformational goodness(Revision 3)

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Post of paninformational goodness(Revision 3) Empty Post of paninformational goodness(Revision 3)

Post by rainen on Wed Apr 23, 2014 7:51 pm

Alrighty then explanation time. While playing this game I came upon a host of various things that warrant discussion so rather then making half a dozen post in various threads I'm taking the simple way out and putting it all in one big conglomerate. Also, I'd like to mention here that while basically everything listed is an issue I have, I am enjoying this game far more then any other I've played recently. It's a fantastic idea, but it's just rough around the edges and in need of some polish. I'm assuming it's still in a sort of open beta stage though so I suppose this is a list of my findings while testing. So, without further adieu, lets jump right in.

Tags to search: [edit2], [edit3], additions from whichever revision number is listed; [fix], labels the proceeding section as an issue that has been addressed.

Section one: Weapons.

1-Tool tips for weapons do not match up with the stats.
---From what I've noticed this error only applies to damage so I'm assuming you toned down the damage of a few upon noticing a larger-then-intended power gap. Also, for the weapons that give bonuses/reductions to armor types, this is important information. As it stands I just ignore those bonuses completely.
---[edit3] This is mostly fixed but there's still a few left that are inconsistent[/edit]

[fix]2-Strength of weapons is inconsistent.
---The order of unlock seems to be top to bottom left to right, so naturally weapons (disregarding tactical and special) should be stronger then the ones above them by a margin. This barely applies to a few categories. I've also found that the special class of weapons are all under powered, and offer no real incentive to use based on what I can see.[/fix]

3-Purpose of weapons is inconsistent.
A---I'm honestly not sure what the point of the automatic weapons are. Their damage is universally low and there's not enough WS bonus in the game to get to a .01 attack speed. Anything an automatic weapon is meant to do is heavily outclassed by the Renegage shotgun.
B---Building an identity for weapons would help. I.E. automatics are for wave clear(faster attack speeds then what they have, bonus damage to non bosses), shotguns are for the heal tanks(good damage and attack speed) and then rifles having larger ranges, huge damage with bonus to bosses, but less attack speed. Over all, rifles would have the best DPS but due to the longer attack speeds they couldn't be used by the tanks, instead being used from a distance. As for tactical and special weapons... Not really sure what the purpose of tactical weapons are, but special weapons should give a skill that can be auto cast rather then having an attack. This skill would be either a buff or a debuff (as a personal request, a buff that increases max HP or gives %damage reduction... or both)

-I believe that's everything for weapons so moving on to...

Section two: Heros.

1-As it stands, there is no dedicated support class.
A---Supports are always fun to play with because of their ability to change how the game is played. A lack of them leads to stale gameplay where every game is the exact same pattern.
B---Although I heavily question if there's even a point to having a support unless it's a buff/debuff type of spell caster.

2-Hp values are extremely low.
---I have yet to fight a boss that can't oneshot the party with some skill or other (granted it's ok on some because of how easy to dodge said skill is, but in most cases you need blink to dodge). This holds true even on normal, though it applies to considerably less bosses.

3-Tanks in this game aren't actually tanks.
A---My specter is a better tank then anything in the tactical class because of the natural AS boost and massive healing I get from attacks, paired with my trusty renegage shotgun.
B---Maxing CDR (I've found a total of 80%) and using the psi shield is a superior way of being the tank. Also, since you have all the CDR it makes things like irradiate crazy useful (since you can keep it on both the boss and a 2nd unit permanently) and at lvl 14 casters are almost as strong as DPSers. I also beat Silvan on extreme using my caster armor set. DPS on caster is actually comparable to a DPS build using the weapon, and with shock cannon getting bonus from spell damage (I'm almost positive this is the case) it works out surprisingly well.
C---In short, DPS and Mage builds make far better tanks then tank builds ever could.

4-Diversity really isn't all that diverse.
---A barely useful starting spell (which doesn't get bonuses from CDR, and I assume it doesn't get bonus damage either), some almost pointless passive, the differences between heros within specific classes are minimal. I do like that spells are different between classes to an extent but at the end of the day all those differences are negligible. The one and only exception is the Specter (and possibly warpig, I haven't noticed situations where armor would help anything all that much though. Everything either 1shots you or you heal away the damage anyway). The Specter's attack speed passive is by far the best because of the nature of attack speed scaling. A not so close second would be a tie between Kerrigan's damage boost and Nova's range boost. Tosh's bonus damage to light units is just... pointless.

-In the end, there's really no point to playing anything but heavy damage dealing characters. It's a dodge or die styled game, as it should be, but this inability to have true tanks is in part because of...

Section three: Items

-The stat value for defensive items are negligible.
A---HP especially is at fault here. Buying an item that offers up a 1% health increase is completely pointless. On the higher end you're able to get a whole 5% health increase along with some other stats.
B---Also, due to the nature of armor and the dodge or die format of the game, armor in general is either worthless in small amounts, or over powered in large amounts. Since we are unable to amass large amounts, this second facet is irrelevant.

-[edit3]The usefulness of the shop ends at $3250
---This is how much money it takes to buy the 4 equips and all the trinkets. A fantastic addition would be a sort of enchanting system that lets you improve items at a cost, but a wider range of useful equips would be fine.
---medkit trinkets were a fantastic idea. My only question; do buying all 3 give you super powered medkits? Also, blue and purple have the same tool tip.[/edit]

-All in all, items aren't necessarily flawed, just underdeveloped. The true source of the issue lies with...

Section four: Stats.

-There are quite a few problems I have with stats. I've mentioned some in passing but now for greater detail.

-HP gained from all sources is negligible on their own, and mediocre in total.
A---HP from individual sources is so marginal that it takes massive amounts of it to have any effect. The 45 you can get from stat points is very helpful, and provides about a 20% increase, but due to the nature of the game that 20% increase is negligible.
B---In total, it is possible to get 84 extra hp, with loot only items that I don't have potentially providing more. This doesn't even total to a 50% increase in health, and you sacrifice practically all damage potential.

-Armor, due to the nature of the game, is worthless in its current form.
---An easy fix is to have armor scale into a %damage reduction boost. Setting a value at 1 armor = 10% more effective HP would be a good way to go. 10 armor means double HP and only a dedicated tank could achieve such a value.

-Shields are rather pointless.
A---Of course, the spell psi shield is an exception, but that's beside the point.
B---A potential fix would be to take a page from the book of a game called Spellsword RPG back in the broodwars era. Shields were effectively always at 100% and served as a form of damage protection. [edit2]It seems like a total of 42 shields can be gained without a major loss of other stats (personally, I would probably choose cdr over shields in the tree though, it would depend on how much having 42 shields really effects survivability if the previously mentioned set up were implemented.[/edit]

-Regen serves no real purpose.
---I honestly can't say much more then that. I've already mentioned the dodge or die nature of this game, and the minor amounts of regen you can get are even more pointless then the health or armor, since a 20% boost in health is still a 20% boost in health and 4 armor constantly gives you more and more use the more hits you take.

-Movement bonuses are underwhelming.
---Part of this issue is that speed in general is quite low to begin with, but for non casters you really can't sacrifice anything for speed. The saving grace here is stim of course, but dropping 7 stat points and a passive on a 1ms bonus is a little excessive.

-One stat point per level only works if you have 99 levels
---By far my most straight forward point, only giving one stat point per level turns a fun system into a tedious one. I can understand this limit if each stat point matters, but it takes 5 of them to bring any meaningful difference to the table.
[edit2]---It may not be purposeful, but the lvl 0 glitch allows you to max all the stat options. Unfortunately, since exp to lvl caps out at 100k -1, getting to lvl 15+ in a match is easier then actually getting to lvl 15 so this "bonus" is less of a completionist goal and more of an inevitability from extended play.[/edit]

---[edit3] The diminishing returns to CDR? Either remove it, universally halve cooldowns or add the ability to get more CDR. Having that 80% cdr is the only thing that made casters viable, and the only skill that abused it was psi shield[/edit]

-In closing, the only stat that's worth anything is damage. Max it early and keep it maxed because it's a 27% global boost.

Section five: Passives

-[fix]Ok, let me start this one off by saying the lvl 15 passives don't seem to work. Also, lvl 11 marksmen doesn't seem to work either.[/fix]
---[edit2][edit3]Marksman, enslaver and Brutality passives all work. I haven't noticed any stats changes in the other 2 lvl 15 passive bonuses so I can't say if they're working.
---The bonus from brutality is absolutely pitiful considering where it is in the tree. 10% bonus from a lvl 15 stat? [/editx2]

-Now for a list of good passives that have stand alone value: [fix]Scythe. This is made better by Light of Auir.[/fix] [edit2]Also, enslaver when used with juggernaut, and the CDR at lvl 3 are fantastic.[/edit]
---Seriously though, most of the passives are good for what they are and the reason they're bad is just a numbers game. Also, some of them are only bad because building anything but damage is bad.
---Also, please, PLEASE don't make a game where fighting bosses is the focus, and then have skills/passives that don't effect bosses. It's decidedly pointless to confuse or stun something that you'll two shot anyway, or just ignore for the entire match.

-A suggestion. Reformat your passive tree to fit this format: Offense, Defense, Utility, Support.
---This ensures a balanced tree with no specific "best option". Take level 7 for instance. Bloodlust is just outclassed, juggernaut is useless on everything but baneling spam and concussion is just... pointless.
---Going through the tree, most levels actually fit this mold already. Just a few tweaks here and there are all you need.
---[edit2]Also, for every option there is to increase weapon base DPS, there should be an option to increase DPS or effectiveness of spells. Just something to note: If there's ever enough CDR to reach a total of 85%, psi shield will become a permanent buff under standard conditions. (This holds true at the ratio of 40s CDR to 6s spell time)[/edit]

-[edit3]Alright... My issues with the passive tree are becoming more and more numerous so I'll be making a separate post detailing the specifics.[/edit]

-Clarification is a necessity.
---Some passives just say what they do, but offer up no numbers. This is bad by default and I hope I don't have to expand.

-That basically wraps up the passives list. So now to transition into...

Section six: Skills

[fix]-As above, Clarification is a necessity.
--- I don't need to be told what an active skill does, I can see it for myself in most cases. What I need to be told is how much damage it does. There is no mana and range is shown when you use the skill so those are non issues.
---I would also like to see how much damage the skill really does, not just the base damage. I don't like having to math in my 167% damage bonus to figure out what a skill does.

-The starting skill doesn't get bonuses
---Simple one here, but the starting skill doesn't benefit from CDR and probably damage bonuses.[/fix]

-[edit3]Skills are terrible.
---There's really no nicer way of putting it, and ultimate skills especially are a massive let down. Ultimate spells specifically need buffs in the realm of double the damage with half the cooldown to even begin to give off the feel of "oh shit I just got my ultimate". The time it takes to get to lvl 8 is roughly 1/8th the time it takes to get to lvl 14 but all ultimate spells are actually out classed by their "lesser" brethren.[/edit]

-That's really all I have for skills.

Section seven: Miscellaneous

-You have all those achievements, some of them are rather hard to obtain, but an idea hit me: Why not offer up a reward for obtaining some of them? The ones like beating t3 on extreme (and later t4) and something along the lines of unlocking all weapons in a category could give a stat point. You can use 54 points total if memory serves me correctly, and you're only given something along the lines of 17. That's not even 1/3rd of the max. Plus there's nothing people like more then being given a reward for an achievement that actually helps them out in game. (well, that's how I am anyway)

And with that, this Massive gathering of information is complete.

1: Something to do with letting the armory die causes a cinematic screen to appear that cannot be closed.
2: When you have no hero selected, you are given a dummy unit that can do nothing, and no ability to repick your unit. An easy fix would be to add a -repick chat command, usable outside of battles only, that replaces your unit with a civilian.
3:[edit2]I didn't mention it before, because I was enjoying it too much to think of it as a bug, but now that it's been fixed I will for the sake of completion. D8 charges [fix]Irradiate and Death laser[/fix] (probably a few others) can team kill in the Hyperion.
---In regards to this, I dislike not being able to self cast irradiate. With the ability to sustain Irradiate on 2 targets, sometimes I would target myself in order to kill lesser mobs that would swarm me.[/new]

Last edited by rainen on Wed Apr 30, 2014 11:17 pm; edited 4 times in total


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Post by Daleman on Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:33 am

Okay so I been patching various things you posted about. Thanks for taking the time to submit all those details.

I just now finished the weapons update which balanced all the weapons and based the damage on boss it was awarded for defeating. This will take effect the next patch tomorrow.

I'm still working on a few others of the bugs you listed I'll keep you updated.

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Post by rainen on Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:32 am

Awesome. I'll be updating my lists as well as you add new content, crossing out things that get fixed, adding in bold new information. I'm hopping in game right now to check things out. I'll be updating here in a bit.


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